Change Frogger from a prototype to a 9?

FastRobPlus · Post by **FastRobPlus** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:48 am

I didn't see any replies to my Frogger thread over at AtariAge, but the author himself has written to tell us that the Chuck Benton version was officailly released by Sierra. It's realitive rarity seems to stem from the fact that it came out 2 years after the John Harris version, meaning that most of the game's sales to Atari users had already been made (and those yet to buy Frogger likely gravitated to the cartridge version.)

Rob

Post by **Atari Frog** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:14 am

I did read it, though I didn't react either. It's great to hear the story from Chuck Benton in person and know the truth 25 years later! I'll definitely change the rarity to a "9" later in the day

Did you get my PM?

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

ijor · Post by **ijor** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:11 am

I still have my doubts it was actually released.

Rob, could you ask Mr. Benton if he knows for sure if his Atari version was actually published and sold? It is possible that he made the version, Sierra bought it, but it never actually sold (may be they never actually published that version).

The disk version of Frogger is quite common. It doesn't make much sense that the Benton version was never found. Furthermore, it doesn't make much sense to not advertize a new version with dual-player capability! We should have seen ads.

Do we have a dump of that tape? Do we know which version is in it?

I know Bertrand, and I guess he won't agree

But IMHO, you should at least make a note that it is not 100% confirmed that the Benton version was actually published.

Post by **Atari Frog** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:03 am

Jorge, you have a disk dump as well, don't you? If the game was found on the back of an Apple disk, everything makes sense to me: Sierra repackaged the game on a "flippy" as it was cheaper.

Two additional notes:
- I doubt the game came out on tape as the market had moved on
- not everything is advertized, particularly for the Atari and certainly not for an old product.

Does anybody have the Threshold / Frogger combo by Impulze Software?

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

ijor · Post by **ijor** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:33 pm

Atari Frog wrote:Jorge, you have a disk dump as well, don't you? If the game was found on the back of an Apple disk,

I'm positive that disk is a demo/review/prototype and not a published release.

- not everything is advertized, particularly for the Atari and certainly not for an old product.

It is possible, but it would be very strange. Sierra decided to invest in a brand new version with new features, it wasn't just a reprint, rerelease or a repackaging. So it is not exactly an "old product".

It is also strange that no cracks of that version were ever found (until recently).

FastRobPlus · Post by **FastRobPlus** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:12 pm

Specifically, he informed me that it had been published just before the release of the c64 version, which was derived from this A8 version.

So... Either it got a limited release or it didn’t get published and Mr. Benton didn't notice since he would have by that time been getting a consolidated royalties for the Apple, C64 and Atari Frogger conversions and the C64 portion of that check would have eclipsed everything else since the C64 got the Benton version of Frogger only (at least until the PB version.) I see both of these as possibilities.

I will say this: seeing "Atari version by Chuck Benton" on the box certainly implies that Sierra was either publishing or intending to publish that version. That’s the reason I became interested in this story to begin with. I still need to get a tape drive so I can see who wrote my “Chuck Benton” version of Frogger.

Post by **Atari Frog** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:33 pm

Jorge, you need to be more precise... Is the version you have copy-protected? Did you check the directory? What does the Apple label look like? This is extremely important. Could you compare the disk you have and the cracked file?

If you have a dump of the disk, please send it over. If you don't want me to upload the game, I won't, but I need detailed information at least...

BTW, I met John Harris in 1998 and he knew about the game written by Chuck Benton. IIRC, he said it was never released commercially but he had the program. John used to frequent the newsgroups back in the day and it's possible he sent that version to some people.

I'm going to change some of the details on the page...

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

Post by **deathtrappomegranate** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:59 pm

FastRobPlus wrote:I still need to get a tape drive so I can see who wrote my “Chuck Benton” version of Frogger.

If you have, or can borrow, an audio cassette deck, you could just make a .wav or .mp3 file and use wav2cas.

ijor · Post by **ijor** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:00 pm

FastRobPlus wrote:I will say this: seeing "Atari version by Chuck Benton" on the box certainly implies that Sierra was either publishing or intending to publish that version.

It is definitely possible that they intended to publish it, but they didn't. Or that they pusblished it only on tape (but Frog claims this is very unlikely).

So my point is that we just don't know exactly yet. May be trying to contact Ken Williams (Sierra founder)? I think they run a private web site with Sierra history. May be they would actually be interested in us providing some archiving material.

ijor · Post by **ijor** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:13 pm

Atari Frog wrote:Jorge, you need to be more precise... Is the version you have copy-protected? Did you check the directory? What does the Apple label look like? This is extremely important. Could you compare the disk you have and the cracked file?

It is "semi-protected". The protection is present on-disk, but it seems it is never checked by the software. This is rather common on demos. I actually have two ST demos by Sierra exactly like this.

I'm not sure it is the Apple version on the front side, it might be the C64 one. You previously assumed it is the Apple version because we thought the Benton version was very early. But now it would make sense it is the C64 version. I can check that. Not sure if I can read the content, but at least I can determine if it is C64 or Apple.

I would guess it is the C64 version. One detail I missed earlier: the disk has the newer "Sierra" label, while the standard Atari version has the old "On-line" label.

I will send you a dump. But I think it would be important to ask the origin of the file version you have. Did you ask Fandal or Homesoft about it?

The main reason I'm almost sure it is a demo, is because there is no platform label. If it was published as flippy (which I find it hard to believe) then it would need to mention the platform for each side at the very least.

Post by **Atari Frog** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:25 pm

ijor wrote:I'm not sure it is the Apple version on the front side, it might be the C64 one. You previously assumed it is the Apple version because we thought the Benton version was very early.

You got me there

One detail I missed earlier: the disk has the newer "Sierra" label, while the standard Atari version has the old "On-line" label.

A very important detail! The information provided by Chuck Benton makes sense if the disk has a newer label.

I will send you a dump. But I think it would be important to ask the origin of the file version you have. Did you ask Fandal or Homesoft about it?

I didn't but I'd put my money on Nir Dary.

The main reason I'm almost sure it is a demo, is because there is no platform label. If it was published as flippy (which I find it hard to believe) then it would need to mention the platform for each side at the very least.

Good point! I'll try to bug Chuck Benton again and e-mail Pete Rittwage at the C64PP site as well.

Here's a completely far-fetched theory...

1. Chuck Benton is pissed off his version isn't released as he started working on the game before John Harris.
2. Chuck has a contract with Sierra and thinks he got screwed as he'll get no royalties! The terms in John Harris' contract are also very clear and it appears impossible to release both versions of the games.
3. Chuck Benton and Sierra reach a compromise: Chuck will get paid but his game will be released "unofficially".

Does this sound crazy or do you think it could've happened that way?

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

ijor · Post by **ijor** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:40 pm

Atari Frog wrote:Good point! I'll try to bug Chuck Benton again and e-mail Pete Rittwage at the C64PP site as well.

Again, I'd try to contact Ken Williams. Those people sometimes never reply, but sometimes they do. I understand he is retired, and if he setup his own web site, he might have some nostalgic attitude.

Of course, even if we would, he might not remember or may be he wasn't personally involved. But it could be a very useful contact

Here's a completely far-fetched theory... Does this sound crazy or do you think it could've happened that way?

Possible, but not very likely. And Chuck Benton would have mentioned something if that was the case. He might not remember the details, but probably he has nothing to hide at this point.

FastRobPlus · Post by **FastRobPlus** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:14 pm

Alright - let's solve this mystery once and for all!

http://classicgames.talkspot.com/aspx/t ... gid/396204

To summarize - the Chuck Benton version is a real, released Full Package Product by Sierra. I don't personally believe it's even a true "9", but it's definitely not a prototype or unreleased title.

FastRobPlus · Post by **FastRobPlus** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:51 am

No comments? I'm working hard to recover lost A8 game information.

Post by **deathtrappomegranate** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:50 am

Thanks!

It does look as though this really is the answer - great to have the mystery solved.