Utilities section.

[ijor]

Congratulations on the opening of the utilities section!

I have a large amount of non-game software. Some originals, some not. Some originals are loose, some boxed, etc. I understand that you are still at the work in progress stage. But if you want me to compile a list of software, let me know.

Btw, both Visicalc and MAC65 have both cartridge and disk versions.

Also, I think you need to adjust the rarity scale. Virtually every non-game software is rare in comparison to games. I think you need to use a different scale, or otherwise most non-game software will need to be listed as rare.

[Atari Frog]

I have a large amount of non-game software. Some originals, some not. Some originals are loose, some boxed, etc. I understand that you are still at the work in progress stage. But if you want me to compile a list of software, let me know.

If you have some time, that would be great!

We do have lots of stuff as well but sorting out utilities is a lot more complicated than games. It can be very boring as well

Btw, both Visicalc and MAC65 have both cartridge and disk versions.

VisiCalc on cartridge? Are you sure this was an official release?

Do you have MAC/65 on disk? I've never seen that one.

Also, I think you need to adjust the rarity scale. Virtually every non-game software is rare in comparison to games. I think you need to use a different scale, or otherwise most non-game software will need to be listed as rare.

I love discussions about rarity

True, utilities are generally rarer than games but you also have a number of common titles. Some are still being sold or pop up on eBay quite frequently. In the end though, I'm pretty sure we'll end up with a lot of "8", "9" and "10" figures.

Just something else to consider as well: an A8 "10" is rarer than a VCS "10".

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

[ijor]

VisiCalc on cartridge? Are you sure this was an official release?

I’m not 100% sure, I don’t have it, but yes, I think so. I think I’ve seen it, but don’t remember for sure. What I’m certain is that it was (is) listed at the dealers.

Do you have MAC/65 on disk? I've never seen that one.

Yep, I have the original disk since the old days, although I think I lost the original manual long ago. It comes with a different debugger than the cartridge version. I think the disk version is earlier, what I’m sure it’s at least earlier than the cartridge version I have.

True, utilities are generally rarer than games but you also have a number of common titles. Some are still being sold or pop up on eBay quite frequently.

Yes, some titles are common. Mostly the ones released by Atari itself, like Atari Writer. Plus some other common popular titles, like Print Ship. But most are rare or at least scarce.

In the end though, I'm pretty sure we'll end up with a lot of "8", "9" and "10" figures.

That’s precisely the reason that it might be better to make the scale relative to other utilities, and not to the general software.

For example, I don’t think Basic XE is that rare. It sells high for other reasons. It’s very popular, you need the manual, and it’s not available in any other form except the banked cartridge one. Actually, I think Basic XL is rarer (just not as popular). And the predecessor ( Basic A+, if I’m not mistaken) is certainly much rarer. If you list Basic XE at rarity 8, then Basic A+ probably would be a 10. And some other utilities from smaller companies would need a 20 !

[Atari Frog]

I’m not 100% sure, I don’t have it, but yes, I think so. I think I’ve seen it, but don’t remember for sure. What I’m certain is that it was (is) listed at the dealers.

I never saw a cartridge version listed anywhere... I have read MANY American mags (Antic, ANALOG, SoftSide, Compute!...), checked all the ads as well and there was nothing. Please let us know if you find more info.

Yep, I have the original disk since the old days, although I think I lost the original manual long ago. It comes with a different debugger than the cartridge version. I think the disk version is earlier, what I’m sure it’s at least earlier than the cartridge version I have.

So we'll have to add it...

Yes, some titles are common. Mostly the ones released by Atari itself, like Atari Writer. Plus some other common popular titles, like Print Ship. But most are rare or at least scarce.

No doubt about that. Don't worry though, there are hundreds and hundreds of commercial titles and I'm fairly sure we'll end up with a lot of "9" and "10" figures.

That’s precisely the reason that it might be better to make the scale relative to other utilities, and not to the general software.

Not sure this is a good idea.

For example, I don’t think Basic XE is that rare. It sells high for other reasons. It’s very popular, you need the manual, and it’s not available in any other form except the banked cartridge one. Actually, I think Basic XL is rarer (just not as popular).

You're probably right about BASIC XL being rarer but it's difficult to be more precise when using a scale from 1 to 10. A "9" for BASIC XL would be too high and I think a "7" for BASIC XE is a bit too low: IIRC, this title can only be found on eBay and you sometimes have to wait two or three months before seeing one.

And the predecessor ( Basic A+, if I’m not mistaken) is certainly much rarer. If you list Basic XE at rarity 8, then Basic A+ probably would be a 10. And some other utilities from smaller companies would need a 20 !

Well, BASIC A+ would probably be a "9" in that case as I don't think any dealer has it in stock. Don't remember seeing this program on eBay either. "10" figures are really exceptional and usually reflect extremely low production runs from tiny companies (I'm pretty sure some people sold 10-15 copies of their work to local clubs for example), true protos or other odd releases.

Edit... Changed BASIC XL rarity to "8", I thought it was already an "8"!

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

[ijor]

I never saw a cartridge version listed anywhere...

Sent you a PM about this.

and I think a "7" for BASIC XE is a bit too low: IIRC, this title can only be found on eBay and you sometimes have to wait two or three months before seeing one.

I don’t think this reflects the rarity. Or might be we having a semantic disagreement about what rarity means.

Rarity, as I understand it, reflects the amount of copies that currently exist. The availability is a different thing, product from the relation between the offer and the demand. Some examples:

Everybody wants MULE. So it’s not so easy to find, and it always fetches a high price. There are rarer games that nobody wants and the dealers have it in stock. Yesterday I bought Pacman boxed on disk at Ebay, for U$10. Much rarer (the disk version, of course) than MULE. Furthermore, it’s not the clam-shell box version you have the picture. It’s the full box version. But nobody is interested, just get the ultra common cartridge if you want.

Same for utilities. Everybody wants Basic XE, that’s why is difficult to find it. But the dealers have stock for much rarer utilities that nobody wants. Recently I bought on Ebay “Movie Maker” for pennies. No, it’s not the ECA software, it’s something different that I never seen or heard before.

"10" figures are really exceptional and usually reflect extremely low production runs from tiny companies (I'm pretty sure some people sold 10-15 copies of their work to local clubs for example), true protos or other odd releases.

Yeah. The extreme case is probably software released outside the main countries (US and Europe).

[deathtrappomegranate]

Heh! I bought one of those "Movie Maker" titles too.

Rarity is a very difficult subject.

Part of the problem is that games are very much better researched, because that is where the main interest exists these days. However, back in the 80s, many people were using utilities on their Atari machines. There was less magazine coverage, and they are less well-known today.

The same is certainly true of educational software.

Constructing a rarity database for A8 software is much more difficult than, for example the Atari 2600, simply because of the vastly greater size of the library. We are all aware that the Atarimania rarity values are not perfect, but the number of titles is huge, and there are only a few of us.

The cartridge rarity values in the database are pretty good (always bearing in mind that the values are for complete packages, and not for loose carts), but the cassette and disk rarities could be improved.

We need input from interested collectors and A8 users in order to improve the ratings, and any contributions or opinions are valued.

As for Visicalc on cartridge, this is currently unknown. There have been persistent rumours about it, and Atari Mexico did produce a very similar product on cartridge. I think that there was some discussion about this on Usenet way back.

If you have any more information...

[Atari Frog]

Rarity, as I understand it, reflects the amount of copies that currently exist. The availability is a different thing, product from the relation between the offer and the demand.

I agree with you on this one but availability should also be considered for the final rating. For example, Threshold was a subject of discussion because one of us was basing the rarity on a rough estimate of number of copies sold (given the big popularity of the game at the time) while the other member rightly said it was pretty tough to find the original title now. Overall, we had to settle for an intermediate figure.

Everybody wants MULE. So it’s not so easy to find, and it always fetches a high price. There are rarer games that nobody wants and the dealers have it in stock.

Of course, some figures could be discussed here

Yesterday I bought Pacman boxed on disk at Ebay, for U$10. Much rarer (the disk version, of course) than MULE. Furthermore, it’s not the clam-shell box version you have the picture. It’s the full box version. But nobody is interested, just get the ultra common cartridge if you want.

In Datasoft packaging you mean or is that US Gold?

Recently I bought on Ebay “Movie Maker” for pennies. No, it’s not the ECA software, it’s something different that I never seen or heard before.

There are several versions around: original by Reston (pretty tough to find), EA and Ariola (UK). Could be there's a German Ariola release as well.

Yeah. The extreme case is probably software released outside the main countries (US and Europe).

Likely but there are also dozens and dozens of early "mail-order only" titles from the US sold by tiny, tiny companies. Some educational games are also very hard to find because they were rarely copied / shared and had a different audience.

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

[ijor]

Yeah, I agree that rarity is a very tricky and subjective issue. Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh. In no way I mean to criticize or undervalue the great work you are doing. Just chatting and exchanging ideas on the subject.

In Datasoft packaging you mean or is that US Gold?

Yes, the Pacman US Datasoft release. But this is the full commercial version. The picture you have seems to be for a budget release.

There are several versions around: original by Reston (pretty tough to find), EA and Ariola (UK). Could be there's a German Ariola release as well.

Let me check … Yep, it’s the Reston release of Movie Maker.

Likely but there are also dozens and dozens of early "mail-order only" titles from the US sold by tiny, tiny companies. Some educational games are also very hard to find because they were rarely copied / shared and had a different audience.

I think you should make a distinction between software published, and just released. By published I mean it has a professionally made label and professionally printed box. Contrast this with software that was home made copied and labeled. The problem with the latter is that there is no way to know if it’s original or not (well, may be the FBI lab can check the origin of the ink or fingerprints of the developer). So rarity for those titles might not make much sense.


Ok, speaking about utilities ... this certainly is the holy-grail of 8-bit and not the cartridge that Andre wants to sell:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 8192585382

LOL. This guy is listing everything as Atari 8-bit. Expect many other rarities like this.

[deathtrappomegranate]

LOL. This guy is listing everything as Atari 8-bit. Expect many other rarities like this.

One of the problems of ebay is sifting the wheat from the chaff (if you'll forgive a Biblical phrase).

Many sellers do not know what they're selling.

[Atari Frog]

Yeah, I agree that rarity is a very tricky and subjective issue. Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh. In no way I mean to criticize or undervalue the great work you are doing. Just chatting and exchanging ideas on the subject.

You didn't sound harsh at all. On the contrary, it's very constructive to have these discussions.

Yes, the Pacman US Datasoft release. But this is the full commercial version. The picture you have seems to be for a budget release.

I hope you're not suggesting we should work on label and box variations to determine rarity

I believe the cheap packaging has to do with their bad financial situation at the time. IIRC, they were taken over by IntelliCreations shortly after.

I think you should make a distinction between software published, and just released. By published I mean it has a professionally made label and professionally printed box. Contrast this with software that was home made copied and labeled. The problem with the latter is that there is no way to know if it’s original or not (well, may be the FBI lab can check the origin of the ink or fingerprints of the developer). So rarity for those titles might not make much sense.

Not sure I follow you exactly... The three main categories are "PD / Freeware / Shareware", "Magazine Bonus or Listing" and "Commercial". As long as you have / had to pay for a game, it falls under the "commercial" category.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 8192585382

That's a good one

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

[ijor]

I hope you're not suggesting we should work on label and box variations to determine rarity

Of course not. I just was illustrating a case that shows that rarity, availability and pricing are related but are different things. In this case, it was about a rare title that sold for a very low price. The fact that the boxing is the rarer, or at least the most desirable, variation is only a side minor issue.

I believe the cheap packaging has to do with their bad financial situation at the time. IIRC, they were taken over by IntelliCreations shortly after.

Might be, don’t know. I thought these clam shells are just budget releases. And I’ve seen this in releases from other companies, not only Datasoft. Budget releases were very common in the 16-bit era. Haven’t seen that many in 8-bit titles.

Not sure I follow you exactly... The three main categories are "PD / Freeware / Shareware", "Magazine Bonus or Listing" and "Commercial". As long as you have / had to pay for a game, it falls under the "commercial" category.

No. I didn’t mean to create a new category. But they probably need a special treatment regarding the assignment of the rarity value. A specific title might be extremely rare, but if it was home made (no commercial box, no printed docs, recorded in-house on a plain bulk floppy, labeled with a home printer), then how can you know which copies are original and which not? So the rarity value, for these cases, probably makes no sense.

[Atari Frog]

No. I didn’t mean to create a new category. But they probably need a special treatment regarding the assignment of the rarity value. A specific title might be extremely rare, but if it was home made (no commercial box, no printed docs, recorded in-house on a plain bulk floppy, labeled with a home printer), then how can you know which copies are original and which not? So the rarity value, for these cases, probably makes no sense.

Well, I really don't think people would try to make repros of all these completely unknown titles... Besides, chances that you'll encounter the same mega rare game twice in three or four years are extremely slim so I'll be extremely happy with just a COPY... Heck, about 95% of A8 users probably never heard of most of the "9" and "10" titles listed.

If people want to fool you, they'll certainly try to do it with a classic game. Another thing to consider is that virtually ALL of the best Atari games have survived and can be found quite easily (apart from a tiny number of programs probably). I could be wrong but I believe most of the "9" or "10" games that are still to be found would be in the "awful to pretty average" category.

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

[Atari Frog]

Sorry to insist, but after browsing some "8" games, I still don't think that Basic XE deserves an "8".

I wish we could have something like "8-" or "8+" but that would be crazy

I just changed the rarity to "7", I think you were convincing enough.

Tapper is certainly way rarer than Basic XE. I don't recall ever seeing it on Ebay. On the other hand, you see Basic XE every other month or so.

An "8" for Tapper seems just right, it does pop up on eBay once in a while. A "9" is way too high.

Loder Runner Championship is rarer too, I think. I remember it being on Ebay only once. It was the first time I saw an 8-bit software sold for more than U$100. I think Peter Olafsen was the winner.

Yes, maybe a rarity of "8" would be more correct. There were probably differing opinions on this one and I believe we eventually settled for a "7". This is too low in my opinion but what do others think?

Btw, strange that Tapper is so rare. I wouldn't image that considering that is one of the most popular games. I might be wrong, and you know about this much more than me. But seems like Tapper is the rarest of the "very popular" games perhaps?

Tapper is the last SEGA game for the A8 before they pulled out of the market so that would explain the rarity. It's still far from being a "9" though.

Edit... What the hell did I do? Very sorry Ijor, it seems I clicked on "edit" instead of "quote" and deleted your message

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

[Atari Frog]

Sorry again, I had to delete your message to avoid the confusion. I believe most of what you wrote is in quoted brackets.

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

[Andre]

Tapper is certainly way rarer than Basic XE. I don't recall ever seeing it on Ebay.

I have seen three copies of the US version until now: one "unboxed" and two boxed (one of them being mine now). The european release pops up quite often compared to the US version.

Loder Runner Championship is rarer too, I think. I remember it being on Ebay only once.

No, I remember at least five copies being sold (although in big lots and without manual and box). Btw, this particular game has an excellent copy protection.

Yes, maybe a rarity of "8" would be more correct. There were probably differing opinions on this one and I believe we eventually settled for a "7". This is too low in my opinion but what do others think?

Ijor is right, LRC is quite rare. Let's give it an "8".

General remark: our rarity scale is a linear one as opposite to the one AtariAge is using to rate the 2600 carts. Also the rarities given are for complete game (,i.e., with manual and box, if available).